Why are radio and other forms of media like films and social media such good channels to use when trying to change social norms? What are the six key elements that you need to consider when using these types of channels? What is interactive theatre and how can you use it with your different target audiences? All of these questions and more are answered in this podcast. Host Halima Zaid talks to Mbathio Diaw Ndiay, Executive Director of Reseau Africain pour l’Education et la Sante (R.A.E.S), Senegal and Umba Zalira, Social Inclusion and Learning Manager at Theatre for a Change, Malawi, about their work and how they have used radio, drama, social media and more to create change.
The three key things you will learn from this podcast are:
Halima Zaid: Welcome to Amplify Change podcasts. Today we are going to talk about how using radio, theatre and other media can create change. Our guests are Mbathio Diaw Ndiaye from Reseau Africain pour l’Education et la Sante (R.A.E.S.) in Senegal and Umba Zalira from Theatre for Change in Malawi.
Mbathio is the executive director for R.A.E.S. in Senegal, a NGO that uses media combined with community action to implement information and awareness programmes in health, education and citizenship. Mbathio is an expert in producing high quality radio programmes to create change.
Halima: Our second guest, Umba Zalira is a monitoring and evaluation and learning manager at Theatre for Change Malawi. She has been with the organisation for four years, and she's passionate about youth participation, leadership, women's health, especially sexual reproductive health and rights for girls and young women. She was a global health fellow in 2014 to 2015, and had a placement at the ministry of health, reproductive health directorate as a programme and partnerships officer. She's also the co-founder of Growing Ambitions, a non-profit organisation that provides career guidance and mentorship to girls and young women in urban areas.
Halima: Umba, why are radio and other forms of media like films and social media such good channels to use when trying to change social norms?
Umba: To start with, we can all see the influence of social media in our day and times. We have had different hashtags that have trended and have caused governments to take action on different issues. In the context of Africa, we had the ‘Bring Back Our Girls’. We also had the ‘Fees Must Fall’ in South Africa, and the recently ‘Am I Next?’ So, we are constantly seeing how social media is more than just a tool for communication or connecting people. We have seen how strongly it can be used to take action and to also advocate for various issues.
Umba: But coming to my context, I am from Malawi. There are a lot of people that have mobile phones, but they don't have smartphones. My country has one of the highest or most expensive internet tax. So, I would say in my context, even though we would want to use social media, there are less people that are on social media because the band or internet are expensive, so we still have to go back and use radio, and radio is still as important, is still as vital in my context.
Umba: That's why we use both too so that we can reach out to a large mass of people, but mainly everyone listens to the radio. Currently, we have a court case that is ongoing and everyone is tuned to the radio. Everyone is in tune with what is happening and what is the next step so we can grow up radio. So social media has its own target and its own market that it works well for people that can afford it, but radio has a wider spread and a wider coverage of the mass of people in my country.
Halima: Thank you Umba. Mbathio, you are an expert in producing high quality radio programmes. What's your take on what Umba has said?
Mbathio: Yes, what I can add is that Umba is right. Even if we use different types of media, social media, television, radio, radio is still the one which is most used in West Africa countries where we are working actually. So, programmes in radio are sort of up, and we continue to use this media to bring information and discuss about issues related to health and wellbeing, as to come social norm change.
Halima: Umba, you have talked about hashtags, you've talked about taking action. I would like to know are there any instances you've been able to use the social media to take the action that has promoted to positive change, especially when advocating for girls and women?
Umba: Yes, definitely. There have been a number of times that I have participated in different campaigns and different webinars, different platforms and spaces through social media to advocate or to push for change on women's issues. For example, the hashtag that I just said that ‘Am I Next?’ There was a case, I'm sure some of us know about it. About a young lady that was raped and murdered at a post office in South Africa, and the hashtag that was being used was, ‘Am I Next?’ And just from how that hashtag trended, there were a lot of women that came out to share the stories of different cases of violence and abuse, and it got the attention of the president, and the president and the government acted on it. So in such ways I have taken part, but also at a national context wise as I've shared that my country is slowly getting there because internet is expensive, but there have also been hashtag that we have had trending in country and have also pushed for.
Umba: I remember a while ago, there was a case were women were being undressed in public by vendors and we started a whole hashtag about ‘My Body, My Choice’. And even that got the attention of the president, and there was a statement that he made about endorsing the rights of women. How anyone can dress however they want, and they can do whatever they want, and no one has the right to undress anyone.
Umba: So we have seen with time, and not just from these two examples. I mean across the continent in Africa, we have seen how social media has influenced change, and in ways I have participated in those social media campaigns in one way or the other. But I also think one of the other things that most people got to spend in, or take part in is when there's a petition that is made. There's a website where people make petitions, it's called change.org. So there are petitions that go around and if you are passionate, if you agree with the cause, then you sign up for it.
Umba: If it gets a number of signatures or signatories, then it gets people in power to also act. So those are some of the examples or some of the ways that I have participated to social media. As part of the work that I do in data operation, but also outside, my friend and I started a podcast as well, it's called Feministing while Malawian, and we have seen the kind of issues that we talk about, sort of sensitive or taboo issues, but we have seen how people have engaged with the content that we're sharing. All of the issues that are affecting young women, but from a feminist perspective. So whether it's sex, sexuality, choice, politics, all those things. So slowly we can see how people are engaged in the social media, but also using it for change.
Halima: What about the costs involving using radio and theatre channels?
Mbathio: What I can say is that the cost is depending to what you expect it, and where you want to put the costs up. You have to know that the more quality you want the more expensive it is. But when you have a good product you can reach more people that can hear your content and participate to your demands. So I think that we used to say that radio channel is not expensive, but it depends if what you want to make with that.
Mbathio: For example, in RAES we are adapting our, [inaudible 00:07:31] Novellas, but we want to have high level products and it costs a little bit, which is a little bit expensive for us. So, it depends on what you [want], what will expect [from] your product. But I think that radio we have not very high cost than television that you use for example, and with radio we can have a lot of people and invite them to participate in our activities.
Umba: Just to add, I agree with Mbathio, we mainly use radio. We don't really use television, but I know there's a bigger cost for television. For radio, there are public owned and private owned radio stations, and I think the case in my country, my situation and most other African countries is that public or government owned radio stations are not as [im]partial as they're meant to be. So we are prone to use more of private radio stations. But one thing that we have tried to do in our context at Theatre for Change Malawi is to work with more community radios, because they are more affordable than a private, national owned radio station.
Umba: It also helps us then cause there's more ownership, the people in that community already are more accustomed to that radio station, or the language that is used. So, we have tried as much as possible that if we're working with a national, private owned radio station, we will connect the centre of them to community radio stations just so that we are also connecting with the community. And it's definitely not enough, but we've already built that relationship with the community radio stations that we can also continue having our programmes aired on that station. So that has been one of the strategies that we have used, working with community radio stations.
Halima: What role does research play in using radio effectively?
Umba: My context, what I would share is that research plays a big role in trying to help us understand the impact of our radio programmes on the target beneficiaries that we're trying to reach out to. And, it does become tricky because if you're going to broadcast a radio programme on a national radio, it's going out to the public. You cannot track who is listening. So for our context, what we've tried to do is to set up radio listening clubs.
Umba: In that way we're able to track the impact of the radio programmes. But research plays a great role in trying to make us understand: What is working? what is the impact the people relating to the storyline? Does this make sense? Does the storyline stir them up to change, or to act or to do something? If not, then what can we do different? What can we do better?
Umba: So, research has played a great role in that area for TfC (Theatre for Change) Malawi, and we continue to have different pieces of research in trying to understand our audience better, and trying to make our programmes better, and trying to make them more impactful every time.
Halima: Are there any instances you've used the radio to change a social norm?
Mbathio: We use the radio, for example in Niger while we were doing a campaign for early child marriage and we are working in four area. In one area, we have broadcast a radio programmes and organised community actions that inform the population, to inform authorities, and we organise at least one big event where we invite all the community and all the authorities of this area.
Mbathio: It was authorities at the end of the day, because they heard about people [inaudible at 00.11.06], they heard about people needs, [they] engage their communities, a man, I don't know how to tell it in English, the deputy [inaudible 00:11:12], I think he called, engage the community in the campaign, and they decide to stop child marriage. I think that was a very big success for us, because we use the radio to inform people to know, to let them discuss why we are having debates on radio, and we invite sociologists and they help us to show that giving a young girl early in marriage is not very good, and that is a big success for us.
Halima: What would you say are the three key elements of using radio successfully to change social norms?
Mbathio: I think that the first thing is to be professional, professionalism. That means to have well-prepared content with a high quality of productions, because that will inspire people and let them hear your programmes and participate in your activities or debates you want to organise.
The second thing is a method to create entertainment programmes, there is methodology to respect. That is a science, we cannot improvise and rely on [inaudible at 00., that we can of course refine for the area where we are working, but this is important to know that we cannot do it as you want.
If you want to work in social norm and to change something and to curve [change} things, I think that Umba already saying it. I say this is evaluation to understand what does not work and to correct it, and that help you to maintain authority of your production, and to know about your audience, and to know how to produce the next seasons, or next episodes of your show.
Umba: I think just to add to what Mbathio has said, I think it's also important to have a story that people can relate to; to have a story that is realistic and is reflecting what is on the ground. So, time and time again, you'd have to go back to the community and collect stories, talk to people, ask them what things look like in their context, rather than doing broadcast or programmes on a general theme, find out what does child marriage look like. It's not the same from community to community. It's fuelled by different things. So those nuances also help your radio programme to be distinct, and for people to relate to it, and for them to actually tune in and sit down for 30 minutes to be listening to it.
Halima: I would like to know, has any of you used theatre or storytelling techniques to successfully change social norms?
Umba: Theatre is at the core of all the community mobilisation awareness and advocacy that we do. So, we use a methodology called interactive theatre where people, the audience can change the course of the story by hash tagging, or by taking part and changing the storyline. And we have seen that methodology work so well because it's a different thing if you just see a role play and you sympathise with someone, but you don't actually take part or suggest what you can do different, or what you can do.
Umba: And also, because people always feel ‘Oh if it was me, I would have done that different’. So we give them a chance. Okay, fine you come. You be this character, and you change it. So then when in those shoes then they take a form of really stepping into the other person's shoes, really feeling what they're feeling and we've seen it change a lot of social norms in communities.
Umba: We've seen it change a lot of minds of leaders or community leaders and local chiefs. One example I can give is for the programme that we had on girls that were being sexually exploited. We did community theatre performances. We also did theatre performances at Parliament. You could see how touched the Parliamentarians were in seeing: ‘Oh so all these policies that we make, all these decisions that we make, this is who it actually affects, and this is what it looks like’. So yes, we use theatre, and we've seen it change social norms at community level and at district level. Trying to inform policies by bringing a face to the stories, or the numbers that we work with as organisations.
Halima: Both of you talked about radio having cost implications. What about theatre? Cause you've talked about using theatre, but we'll make to know if using theatre has also cost implications?
Umba: Yes, it does. It definitely does. Every activity you're going to do in a project has cost implications. But for theatre, in our case, the cost implications are less than that of radio. For example, a budget that would need to implement a theatre performance at community level would not be the same budget. Majority of the funds for radio goes into paying for airtime for radios, well for theatre, you need to rehearse, you need to come up with a story, but you go to a community, you can just go to a market, or an event that is already happening and you have an audience. So, theatre has its cost for performances that is, it has this cost, but I'll say from experience it's less cost than compared to radio.
Mbathio: You have less cost with using theatre than radio, but audience is smaller. When you broadcast your programme in the radio, you can have lot of person listening to you, and the theatre is really local. This is good. You can use theatre. But if you have a very local programme and if you have time, for example, to organise differently from your presentation, but it is costs less to use theatre than the radio.
Halima: Let's say an organisation is thinking of using one of those channels. That's theatre and radio to get its message out, which would you recommend using first and why? And maybe you can also give your scenarios in a rural setting and in an urban setting?
Umba: To answer this question, I'll build on the point that Mbathio just shared, this need for more context. What is the objective? Who are they trying to reach out to? Because then that will also influence what kind of medium they should use to the people that they're trying to reach out to, but also then we just talked about cost implications, so that also plays a factor. Do they have the money to actually go to radio? Do they have the money to do a theatre performance?
Umba: But I would go for both if that's another option. I would go for both. I would encourage them do to do both, also that they can evaluate and weigh them to see what's the thing that is working for them. Because we might say that theatre was it's very specific. You have a targeted audience that you can easily track the impact and the influence of your performance.
Umba: Radio is big. You reach out to more people, more people get to receive your message. You get to hear about it. It might be hard to track because we can't follow through with everyone that has listened to it. But there are factors that will affect or influence which one they will go with first. So, I think it's a tricky question.
Mbathio: Yes, the only thing I'd add is that you can use theatre in radio, you can do that. Actually, we are trying to renew a little bit radio theatre, more elaborated than local theatre but, it works and you just have to know the time that people are listening, the habits that people have with radio and then that is okay, but you can use both, and you have different results with one of each.
Halima: Do you think this can work in both rural and urban setting?
Mbathio: Yes, because in rural--
Umba: Yes, both can work in community radio.
Mbathio: Yes.
Mathbio: Community radio, as in specific and locals, they talk to the community and they have, they know how to address that.
Halima: What next steps would you recommend for an organisation starting out using media to change social norms?
Mbathio: I have these five things I want to share.
So, at first, we already said conduct for market research as by in health expert or Academy, but that can help you to have information about the social norms, and habits and the community you are addressing your message.
And the second one is to understand the technical specification for the major radio, theatre or television, etc you are going to develop the message for. For example, you know that for television you have 26 minutes for a programme, or a 30 minutes programme. When radio show is more effective when it is between 10 or 20 minutes. You have to know that to produce a good element.
And the third one is to give to your listeners opportunity to participate actively during or after the show. That can help you to have their comment, let them ask questions to understand more what you are explaining, or what you are developing.
Mbathio: And the fourth one is towards the radio programme to ensure you have the good radio channel that hosts your programme to reach the targets, and the language you are using for the community.
And this last one is to share the experience. To share, participate in platforms to show your programmes, to hear comments from people for learning and improving your material, because technology is always changing, moving and you have to be on air to follow this to always produce a good programme. Since in five years we are working on the programme and we know that respecting these things that can help you to achieve your goal.
Halima: Thank you. For both of you, how have you been able to determine whether your intervention has created a positive impact through use of radio programmes?
Umba: For us, one of the ways that we've done that is by conducting different pieces of research in house that has helped us to track the impact that we're having, but also that has worked out well for us because as I shared that we have established listening clubs. For example, if you have a project in a community then we'll establish a listening club that will include different participants, or different members from the community that we're seeing as stakeholders, or powerholders or influencers at community level that we want to get their support, to support the project but also support the beneficiaries that we're working with.
Umba: So we're targeting and are listening. But also, Mbathio has shared we have used different mobile applications to get feedback. So if we have a radio programme, we set up poll questions that the public can weigh in, or get the views of the public. That also helps us then to see how are things changing if they're changing at all or where are the gaps? What are the things that we are missing, what are the new things that we can add in in our programme? So those two things, and lastly. Then also going back, making sure that our storyline is as realistic as possible, and that it's reflecting the issues on the ground.
Halima: Thank you, Umba. Mbathio, do you have anything to add?
Mbathio: No, that is okay. But I think that Umba say it's having the feedbacks is very important for radio and any other programmes.
Halima: Thank you both for joining us. We've come to the end of our podcast. I've really enjoyed our discussion, and I know our listeners will enjoy the discussion as well.
Umba: My name is Umba Zalira. I worked for Theatre for a Change Malawi. Want to know more about using theatre in your work? Please take a look at the how to guide on how to transform social norms through theatre. It's on www.amplifychangelearn.org.
Mbathio: Hi, I'm Mbathio from R.A.E.S. Please take a look at my How to guides on How to transform social norms through radio and as a media. It is on www.amplifychangelearn.org Check it out now.